Comments on: Leaky Bitch – Incontinence in female dogs http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/ Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:45:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Collin Alstrom http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-6568 Collin Alstrom Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:53:38 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-6568 I truly enjoy looking at on this website , it has wonderful articles . I truly enjoy looking at on this website , it has wonderful articles .

]]> By: matt http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1803 matt Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:35:12 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1803 hey emily, youre right, pharmacovigilence in the vet context is poor, and its unlikley we'll see any statistical proof of rarer adverse events any time soon. While PPA doesnt have any direct effect on clot/stroke formation, theres definately a potential for PPA to exasserbate underlaying cardiovascular disease. Stroke could occur secondarily. The nastier side of any drug is usually revealed by overdose and to quote from Plumb, the vet drug bible...... Symptoms of overdosage may consist of severe cardiovascular (hypertension to rebound hypotension, bradycardias to tachycardias, and cardiovascular collapse) or CNS effects (stimulation to coma) can be seen. It wouldnt be difficult to imagine a thromboembolic event arising from overdose, but not at therapeutic doses Unless your 2 year old was born with a heart condition, its unlikely she'll have any heart froblems for a few years yet, so will probably be ok for now. Dunno about parsley, but soy milk is probably a source of phyto-oestrogen, and hence may act like the oestrogens described in the article. If your concerned about potential sie effects, I'd recommend you explore other options, including acupuncture or herbs, as you dont have anything to lose.....except your paitence having to clean up urine. I'd be interested to hear if parsley worked! cheerio hey emily,
youre right, pharmacovigilence in the vet context is poor, and its unlikley we’ll see any statistical proof of rarer adverse events any time soon.

While PPA doesnt have any direct effect on clot/stroke formation, theres definately a potential for PPA to exasserbate underlaying cardiovascular disease. Stroke could occur secondarily.

The nastier side of any drug is usually revealed by overdose and to quote from Plumb, the vet drug bible…… Symptoms of overdosage may consist of severe cardiovascular (hypertension to rebound hypotension, bradycardias to tachycardias, and cardiovascular collapse) or CNS effects (stimulation to coma) can be seen.
It wouldnt be difficult to imagine a thromboembolic event arising from overdose, but not at therapeutic doses

Unless your 2 year old was born with a heart condition, its unlikely she’ll have any heart froblems for a few years yet, so will probably be ok for now.

Dunno about parsley, but soy milk is probably a source of phyto-oestrogen, and hence may act like the oestrogens described in the article.

If your concerned about potential sie effects, I’d recommend you explore other options, including acupuncture or herbs, as you dont have anything to lose…..except your paitence having to clean up urine. I’d be interested to hear if parsley worked!

cheerio

]]> By: Emily http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1800 Emily Wed, 24 Nov 2010 03:36:49 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1800 Hi Matt, Thanks for the information. I give my 2 yr old mix 25 mg of Proin per day. She's been on it about a year or so and it works. I'm worried, however, about the anecdotal data about strokes possibly being caused by Proin. I realize this cannot be proved, but I wondered your opinion. Also, do you know anything about the natural remedies such as parsley or soymilk? Thanks! -Emily Hi Matt,
Thanks for the information. I give my 2 yr old mix 25 mg of Proin per day. She’s been on it about a year or so and it works. I’m worried, however, about the anecdotal data about strokes possibly being caused by Proin. I realize this cannot be proved, but I wondered your opinion. Also, do you know anything about the natural remedies such as parsley or soymilk?
Thanks!
-Emily

]]> By: matt http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1571 matt Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:02:42 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1571 hi melissa, your boxer has a greater incontinent tendency than most. With 20/20 hindsight it may have been better to delay desxing until after a few heats, to allow the natural oestrogen cycles to strengthen pelvic floor/bladder neck tone. Although thers no guarantee this would have prevented the problem. The downside of delaying desexing surgery is the associated increase in breast cancer incidence in later life. If twice daily propalin is too much of a drag, and you cant change lifestyle to accomodate some incontinence, oestrogens are your only alternative. Its possible, over time, you may be able to decrease the oestrogen dose to 1mg/ week or even lower. While no exact level of DES dose is described as safe, ending up on 25-50% more than the recommended dose wouldn't conern me if she was my dog. The doses that cause oestrogen dependent cancers in experimental studies were about ranging from 60 to 495 mg given over 1 month. Bone marrow suppression has been described at doses about 2.2 mg/kg per day - that would be about 40 x 1mg DES pills a day for your boxer. In this context 1-2 pills per week is a very small dose indeed. hope this helps matt hi melissa, your boxer has a greater incontinent tendency than most. With 20/20 hindsight it may have been better to delay desxing until after a few heats, to allow the natural oestrogen cycles to strengthen pelvic floor/bladder neck tone. Although thers no guarantee this would have prevented the problem. The downside of delaying desexing surgery is the associated increase in breast cancer incidence in later life.

If twice daily propalin is too much of a drag, and you cant change lifestyle to accomodate some incontinence, oestrogens are your only alternative. Its possible, over time, you may be able to decrease the oestrogen dose to 1mg/ week or even lower. While no exact level of DES dose is described as safe, ending up on 25-50% more than the recommended dose wouldn’t conern me if she was my dog.

The doses that cause oestrogen dependent cancers in experimental studies were about ranging from 60 to 495 mg given over 1 month. Bone marrow suppression has been described at doses about 2.2 mg/kg per day – that would be about 40 x 1mg DES pills a day for your boxer. In this context 1-2 pills per week is a very small dose indeed.

hope this helps
matt

]]> By: Melissa http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1570 Melissa Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:53:41 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1570 My 2yr old Boxer started bed wetting a few months after her desexing (at 6months). We tried Propalin first.... worked well so long as you never missed a dose morning or night or dropped below .55mls per dose. Then we tried Stibesterol higher dose at first then dropping to the recommended 1 tablet per week. As soon as we dropped the dose to 1 tab per week the bed wetting started again. I guess the answer is leave her on a higher dose? but what is considered a high dose? at what point do the risks outweigh the benefits? do these drugs put pressure on the organs? My 2yr old Boxer started bed wetting a few months after her desexing (at 6months). We tried Propalin first…. worked well so long as you never missed a dose morning or night or dropped below .55mls per dose. Then we tried Stibesterol higher dose at first then dropping to the recommended 1 tablet per week. As soon as we dropped the dose to 1 tab per week the bed wetting started again.

I guess the answer is leave her on a higher dose? but what is considered a high dose? at what point do the risks outweigh the benefits? do these drugs put pressure on the organs?

]]> By: Shanon Buckless http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1555 Shanon Buckless Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:51:55 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1555 Cool. Thanks for writing this. It is always great to see someone educate the community. Cool. Thanks for writing this. It is always great to see someone educate the community.

]]> By: matt http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1544 matt Sun, 17 Oct 2010 09:29:57 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1544 Thats unusual but a great outcome, Jayne. I havent been aware of such permanent responses, but they could go unnoticed by vets - we are only alerted by dog owners if a drug fails rather than succeeds. Thats unusual but a great outcome, Jayne. I havent been aware of such permanent responses, but they could go unnoticed by vets – we are only alerted by dog owners if a drug fails rather than succeeds.

]]> By: Jayne http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1543 Jayne Sun, 17 Oct 2010 06:50:40 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1543 My kelpie had low dose hormone treatment for incontinence soon after I got her (she was about 18 months old) and about 12 months later she no longer needed the tablets. She is now 6-7 years old and has never had the problem again. My kelpie had low dose hormone treatment for incontinence soon after I got her (she was about 18 months old) and about 12 months later she no longer needed the tablets. She is now 6-7 years old and has never had the problem again.

]]> By: matt http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1532 matt Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:33:14 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1532 If you read the full article, it describes the theoretic association between breast cancer and oestrogen therapy. Those personally touched by a particular disease, even if in a human relative, may be understandably reluctant to use medication similar to HRT in another loved companion, albeit canine. If you read the full article, it describes the theoretic association between breast cancer and oestrogen therapy. Those personally touched by a particular disease, even if in a human relative, may be understandably reluctant to use medication similar to HRT in another loved companion, albeit canine.

]]> By: hazel http://communityvet.net/2009/12/leaky-bitch-incontinence-in-the-female-dog/comment-page-1/#comment-1531 hazel Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:30:53 +0000 http://communityvet.net/?p=1826#comment-1531 I copied and pasted this of your website - •Unless your mother’s death from breast cancer has left a permanent emotional scar, or you can’t cope with risk’s of 1 in the 10′s of thousands, I’d try the hormonal option first. If your bitch responds well, and only low doses are required, it’s safe, easy and cheap. What on earth has this to do with Dog incontinence? I copied and pasted this of your website -

•Unless your mother’s death from breast cancer has left a permanent emotional scar, or you can’t cope with risk’s of 1 in the 10′s of thousands, I’d try the hormonal option first. If your bitch responds well, and only low doses are required, it’s safe, easy and cheap.

What on earth has this to do with Dog incontinence?

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